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| Tab
| Joined: 25 Sep 2008 | Posts: 4 | : | | Items |
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Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 12:11 am Post subject: Creating puzzle only solveable by a human. |
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Hi all,
I'm new here, and thought this would be the best forum to get an answer to my question.
Is there any way to create a sudoku that is only solveable by a human. I am not talking about a regular, by the book sudoku puzzle, as these can all obviously all be solved by a program of one sort or another. But I was thinking maybe you could make a small change to the way the puzzle works, or change/add a new rule that would make it un-solveable by a computer.
I was thinking maybe make certain givens multiple choice so that a few givens have say 3 numbers in them. But realised that a program could still solve this.
There must be a change, or combination of changes to the rules that can make a sudoku, or variation of sudoku as it would end up being, only solveable by a human?
Anyone have any thoughts?
Tab |
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| Lunatic
| Joined: 11 Mar 2007 | Posts: 166 | : | Location: Ghent - Belgium | Items |
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Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:15 am Post subject: |
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IMHO, if it's solveable by a human than it is certainly solveable by a computerprogram. _________________ Marc
~~~<><~~~<><~~~<><~~~<><~~~
Last edited by Lunatic on Sat Sep 27, 2008 11:19 am; edited 1 time in total |
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| Tab
| Joined: 25 Sep 2008 | Posts: 4 | : | | Items |
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Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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How about generating a valid sudoku board, and then replace all the givens with a random set of symbols, with the same symbol used for each number in that particular game. So in one game eights may be a $ and twos maybe a % etc... You would have to randomly make guesses as to what number a symbol may represent, try and complete it and if you get stuck, try again with another number etc.. Certain symbols would become clear very quickly, others wouldn't.
Would this work? Could it yield more than one solution even though there was only one solution to start with?
Tab |
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| Tab
| Joined: 25 Sep 2008 | Posts: 4 | : | | Items |
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Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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Tab wrote: | How about generating a valid sudoku board, and then replace all the givens with a random set of symbols, with the same symbol used for each number in that particular game. So in one game eights may be a $ and twos maybe a % etc... You would have to randomly make guesses as to what number a symbol may represent, try and complete it and if you get stuck, try again with another number etc.. Certain symbols would become clear very quickly, others wouldn't.
Would this work? Could it yield more than one solution even though there was only one solution to start with?
Tab |
OK I just tried this by replacing all givens with symbols, and I am pretty sue its impossible to complete. However I then tried it by only replacing a few of the givens, for example all the 9s,8s,4s and 2s with symbols. You can then systematically figure out what a symbol isn't by checking what others numbers are in that row/column. The choose another symbol and do the same, then cross reference them by finding where those 2 symbols are in the the same row or column etc... I really enjoyed completeing this, and the harder the original puzzle, and the more givens you replace with symbols the harder it gets to decipher the symbols and then complete the board.
Not sure if I have missed something and this will not work with all sudoku boards, or if this sort of sudoku has been created before and I just haven't heard of it. I guess I will need to keep testing it.
Anyone have any thoughts?
Tab |
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| tarek
| Joined: 31 Dec 2005 | Posts: 153 | : | Location: London, UK | Items |
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Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Tab,
Remember that the 1,2,3,4,.... are symbols. Swapping them with other symbols will not make any difference.
Here is a puzzle with a unique solution & solvable by a human Code: | # . . | . . % | . > .
. . % | @ . . | & . .
. ? . | . & . | . . @
-------+-------+------
. % . | . . . | . $ .
. . ^ | . > . | . . ?
$ . . | . . . | @ . .
-------+-------+------
. > . | . . # | ^ . .
? . . | ^ . . | . . !
. . # | . $ . | . & . | tarek |
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| Tab
| Joined: 25 Sep 2008 | Posts: 4 | : | | Items |
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Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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Your right of course, im a little slow today. I guess what I am trying create is a sudoku where each symbol can only be one number, the number it was before it changed to a symbol. For example in your symbol sudoku once you have completed the board, you can assign any number you want to each symbol regardless of what number they might have been before switching them to symbols. Which is not what I want.
I think this example is what I am after.
Code: |
. . . | . . & | £ . %
4 5 . | . . . | . . .
. 2 3 | 8 . . | . . 7
-------+-------+------
. % 5 | . . 4 | 2 . £
2 . 1 | 5 . . | 8 9 .
8 7 6 | 1 . % | 4 . .
-------+-------+------
& . 2 | . 6 3 | . . .
7 . . | . £ 8 | 6 . .
. . 8 | . . . | . 1 .
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Say I wanted you to give me the 2 numbers & and £ represent above. I'm pretty sure those 2 symbols can only be changed to a specific number each, and that you would have to complete the entire puzzle before you could tell me.... Am I correct?
Tab |
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| m_b_metcalf
| Joined: 13 Mar 2006 | Posts: 210 | : | Location: Berlin | Items |
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Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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Tab wrote: | Your right of course, im a little slow today. I guess what I am trying create is a sudoku where each symbol can only be one number, the number it was before it changed to a symbol. For example in your symbol sudoku once you have completed the board, you can assign any number you want to each symbol regardless of what number they might have been before switching them to symbols. Which is not what I want.
I think this example is what I am after.
Code: |
. . . | . . & | £ . %
4 5 . | . . . | . . .
. 2 3 | 8 . . | . . 7
-------+-------+------
. % 5 | . . 4 | 2 . £
2 . 1 | 5 . . | 8 9 .
8 7 6 | 1 . % | 4 . .
-------+-------+------
& . 2 | . 6 3 | . . .
7 . . | . £ 8 | 6 . .
. . 8 | . . . | . 1 .
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Say I wanted you to give me the 2 numbers & and £ represent above. I'm pretty sure those 2 symbols can only be changed to a specific number each, and that you would have to complete the entire puzzle before you could tell me.... Am I correct?
Tab |
No. A partial solution gives £=1 and &=5. You simply need to delete your symbols and find the common clues in all multiple solutions. Substituting gives %=9 immediately.
I think you need to read a little about Computability
Regards,
Mike Metcalf. |
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| mrmarky2
| Joined: 13 Jan 2007 | Posts: 64 | : | | Items |
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Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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How about general knowledge questions to get the clues, sort of.
That way it would be very difficult for a computer program to get all the clues.. but a human could solve it
Mark |
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| m_b_metcalf
| Joined: 13 Mar 2006 | Posts: 210 | : | Location: Berlin | Items |
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Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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mrmarky2 wrote: | How about general knowledge questions to get the clues, sort of.
That way it would be very difficult for a computer program to get all the clues.. but a human could solve it
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Precisely what the Turing Test is all about.
Regards,
Mike Metcalf |
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| lkSudoku
| Joined: 16 May 2009 | Posts: 60 | : | | Items |
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Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 10:47 am Post subject: |
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All sudoku boards are solvable by machine
Simply use trial and error with backtracking |
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