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| martinp
| | Joined: 15 Jun 2009 | | Posts: 8 | | : | | Location: London |
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 Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:23 am Post subject: How many of these techniques are human-friendly? |
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Hi all, I know this is a programmers forum, so there's bound to be a particular focus but I had a quick-ish question.
In our analysis of all the possible techniques for solving puzzles, has anyone done any kind of study of the point at which humans just can't go any further (or do we even have a feel for it)
I profess to be trying to set up a site with some tips and techniques on it but as a newspaper solver myself, I look on some of the high-end techniques as beyond what I could possibly do without computer assistance. Am I just a bit useless? 
Is there, perhaps, a place where we could draw a line in the sand and say that all puzzles below this are feasible for novice/average/clever/genius solvers (without assistance)? I guess in a sense we have the categories used by the papers anyway - does anyone out there finish a Times "Super Fiendish" without breaking a sweat?
I don't know if this is too philosophical a question for this forum...I couldn't find a better place for it.
Martin |
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| martinp
| | Joined: 15 Jun 2009 | | Posts: 8 | | : | | Location: London |
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 3:42 pm Post subject: Wow, I can hear the tumbleweed drifting across the forum! |
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| Wow, super quiet in here. |
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| tarek
| | Joined: 31 Dec 2005 | | Posts: 153 | | : | | Location: London, UK |
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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There are humans that crack even the most difficult of puzzles.
Puzzle difficulty is very subjective & there is no consensus on a cut-off line.
My feeling that weekdays newspaper puzzles should be solvable by a pencil & paper solver while commuting. Weekend puzzle can exceed that IMO.
tarek |
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| martinp
| | Joined: 15 Jun 2009 | | Posts: 8 | | : | | Location: London |
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks, Tarek,
Yes, I suppose it's true that there will always be people that can use some of these techniques. Maybe we just get bored at lower levels and look for new ways to challenge ourselves.
Martin |
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| davidbod
| | Joined: 07 Nov 2008 | | Posts: 6 | | : | |
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| Posted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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| I have an Extreme-level puzzle published in some US papers each week. Although the rubric warns that the puzzle is very difficult puzzle and may require brute-force searches, they always find a way to solve it using a couple of advanced techniques. |
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| martinp
| | Joined: 15 Jun 2009 | | Posts: 8 | | : | | Location: London |
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:38 am Post subject: |
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| davidbod wrote: | | I have an Extreme-level puzzle published in some US papers each week. Although the rubric warns that the puzzle is very difficult puzzle and may require brute-force searches, they always find a way to solve it using a couple of advanced techniques. |
I suppose that's what amazes me... I don't consider myself low down in the gene pool but some folks' abilities with the techniques is awesome |
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| m_b_metcalf
| | Joined: 13 Mar 2006 | | Posts: 210 | | : | | Location: Berlin |
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 10:40 am Post subject: |
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| martinp wrote: | | davidbod wrote: | | I have an Extreme-level puzzle published in some US papers each week. Although the rubric warns that the puzzle is very difficult puzzle and may require brute-force searches, they always find a way to solve it using a couple of advanced techniques. |
I suppose that's what amazes me... I don't consider myself low down in the gene pool but some folks' abilities with the techniques is awesome |
What amazes me is that people post these comments without any example puzzle to show what they're on about!
On your more general point, this Forum seems to on the point of extinction. Go to www.sudoku.com/boards for all the real action.
Regards,
Mike Metcalf |
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| lkSudoku
| | Joined: 16 May 2009 | | Posts: 60 | | : | |
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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The question is somewhat similar to the question if there is a sudoku puzzle that requires guessing http://www.setbb.com/sudoku/viewtopic.php?t=1728&highlight=guess&mforum=sudoku
It seems that every puzzle has a logical solution, but indeed, some logical solutions are so complicated that I doubt if it is humanly possible to apply them without machine assistance
Perhaps one may define a logical technique as not applicable when the number of combinations that needs to be checked in order to apply it is above some large enough size |
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| strmckr
 | | Joined: 24 Apr 2009 | | Posts: 52 | | : | |
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| Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:38 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | does anyone out there finish a Times "Super Fiendish" without breaking a sweat |
Yes:
for example:
friday oct 2nd
is all naked/hidden singles and a few box line reductions solved in under 3 mins.
| Code: |
*-----------*
|.2.|..8|.5.|
|...|..6|4..|
|...|.2.|3.1|
|---+---+---|
|..5|.3.|8..|
|1.7|...|9.4|
|..3|.7.|1..|
|---+---+---|
|7.4|.5.|...|
|..8|9..|...|
|.9.|8..|.4.|
*-----------* |
| Quote: | | it seems that every puzzle has a logical solution, but indeed, some logical solutions are so complicated that I doubt if it is humanly possible to apply them without machine assistance |
its not humanly impossible to apply the logic without machines assistance
the number of people capable of understanding and implementing that logic is few and far between.
there is a hand full of us on the players form capable of such feats 
i have yet to see a newspaper puzzle or for that matter any publication in print that requires brute for any puzzle.
however for the average solvers that is an easy outcry they need a "guess to solve" when its more a question of if they understand the move or not. and more over if they happen to find it in the first place.
even the hardest puzzles found to date have been manually solved the real question is how many people statistically could solve it in the first place.
now is there any puzzle that requires brute probably not, if it has 1 solution then there is a solution albeit extremely complex and depends on how u view the logic inherent.
| Quote: | | s there, perhaps, a place where we could draw a line in the sand and say that all puzzles below this are feasible for novice/average/clever/genius solvers (without assistance) |
the short list for techniques used in newspaper or competition puzzles from the few places i play regular and have posted topics on and answer question to teach a range of skilled players:
from a usage stand point without pms or with
in my observation sits somewhere like this:
novice:
singles (hidden)
hidden subsets
blr
intermediate:
Naked singles
x-wing
Advance:
naked subsets
xy-wing
Expert:
UR type 1-4
skyscraper: (highly effective often underused)
finned /sashimi x-wings (ineffective on average to use)
Empty rectangle (ineffective on average to use)
w-wings: types A-D (effective underused)
beyond here is a waste of time to explain more often then not you will not need them.
| Quote: |
In our analysis of all the possible techniques for solving puzzles, has anyone done any kind of study of the point at which humans just can't go any further (or do we even have a feel for it) |
this would be highly subjective. |
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