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| hobiwan
| Joined: 11 Feb 2008 | Posts: 83 | : | | Items |
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Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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I thought that was clear from my first post, but obviously not: HoDoKu can only solve puzzles up to approx. SE 9.3 by logic. It can therefore solve only a handful of the 694 puzzles with SE > 9.5 from the Patterns Game.
I confess, I get a bit tired of this conversation. You claim you have developed a new powerful method. Are you going to present it or not? Because if not, i really see no reason to continue posting. |
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| ivoc
| Joined: 05 Mar 2010 | Posts: 18 | : | | Items |
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Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 7:13 am Post subject: |
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My Solver doesn't use the logical method Nice Loop, it uses logical method Wedding Ring as a simple upgrade of Nice Loop.
How I understand the logical method Nice Loop?
Nice Loop supposes the Candidate C in the HomeCell H. Then it makes a loop through the cells, using pure basic Sudoku definition, intending/attempting to return back to the HomeCell. If it "brings" back an other candidate or it "brings" the same candidate in another cell of one of HomeCell groups, there is a conflict, supposed Candidate C in HomeCell H is wrong and can be eliminated. But other cells usually keep the candidates unchanged.
Wedding Ring uses the same logic but another philosophy. Why return back to HomeCell? All the cells have "equal rights" and the conflict can occur in any cell. In the case of conflict, the supposed Candidate C in HomeCell H is wrong and can be eliminated. But the other cells usually keep the candidates unchanged like when using the Nice Loop
method.
Example 1, Candidate C supposed:
.....3..6...9..2...1..8.3....7.2.4.....17.9..1..3..5..4.1..6....62.9...35.97..6.4
After Pointing Pair:
IF 5r2c5 THEN
Chain 1: 3r7c5,1r9c5,4r1c5,2r1c4,7r3c6,2r9c6,8r9c8,7r7c7,8r1c7,5r1c3,4r3c3
Chain 2: 3r7c5,1r9c5,4r1c5,2r1c4,7r3c6,2r9c6,8r9c8,7r7c7,8r1c7,7r2c9,4r2c2
Twice Candidate 4, Box 1
And more! Why only suppose a candidate in HomeCell? Why not deny this candidate in HomeCell first? It's more powerful, because finding a conflict means that Candidate C in HomeCell is the RIGHT ONE and consequently some other cells change.
Example 2 , Candidate C denied:
Grid ...352.1.65.78143..1.96458...18..294.....9...9241..8....65.3.2..95.17368.3.6.8.45
After Box Reduction and Naked Pair:
IF NOT 6r1c7 THEN
Chain 1: 6r5c7,3r6c9,7r6c5,5r6c8,7r5c8,8r5c2,3r5c3,8r1c3,4r1c1,7r1c2,4r7c2,9r7c5
Chain 2: 6r5c7,3r6c9,7r6c5,5r6c8,7r5c8,8r5c2,3r5c3,8r1c3,9r2c3,2r2c9,7r3c9,9r7c9
Twice Candidate 9, Row 7
Wedding Ring is, like the Nice Loop, a computer method, not a "human" one. But it's so powerful that in combination with only basic methods HiddenSingle and NakedSingle solves any Sudoku grid, when the Guessing is not necessary.
This also means that it gives in any step the answer if all other known methods failed, including Nice Loop, Double- and Triple_Implication. If it doesn't find the answer, the guessing is needed or the grid has more than one solution.
In many cases, like the grids written in my prior post, the Guessing is NOT needed if Wedding Ring is implemented.
BTW, method Colors/Multicolors is very similar and powerful too, but the procedure is a little less complicated because of following only one candidate. |
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| hobiwan
| Joined: 11 Feb 2008 | Posts: 83 | : | | Items |
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Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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I posted a reply yesterday but apparently didnt submit it. Here it is again:
Wedding Ring sounds to me like a Forcing Net (with a lot of multiple inferences). What I do not understand is why it is so efficient in solving extremely hard puzzles.
What steps finds your solver in the puzzles below?
Code: | .--------------------.--------------------.---------------------.
| 1 568 679 | 2 579 789 | 3 4678 4678 |
| 3789 2368 23679 | 1389 4 13789 | 16789 5 678 |
| 35789 358 4 | 13589 1579 6 | 1789 178 2 |
:--------------------+--------------------+---------------------:
| 6 1348 139 | 13459 1579 13479 | 2 3478 34578 |
| 34 7 123 | 13456 8 1234 | 56 9 3456 |
| 3489 2348 5 | 3469 267 2347 | 678 34678 1 |
:--------------------+--------------------+---------------------:
| 2 1356 136 | 7 169 189 | 4 1368 3568 |
| 457 9 167 | 1468 3 1248 | 15678 12678 5678 |
| 347 1346 8 | 146 126 5 | 167 12367 9 |
'--------------------'--------------------'---------------------' |
Code: | .---------------------.---------------------.-------------------.
| 1 478 46789 | 4789 5789 2 | 5678 569 3 |
| 79 2 6789 | 1789 3 1589 | 15678 4 5789 |
| 3479 3478 5 | 6 1789 1489 | 178 129 2789 |
:---------------------+---------------------+-------------------:
| 24579 1457 3 | 12789 15789 1589 | 1458 159 6 |
| 259 6 129 | 12389 4 13589 | 1358 7 589 |
| 8 1457 1479 | 1379 15679 13569 | 2 1359 459 |
:---------------------+---------------------+-------------------:
| 2345 13458 1248 | 1348 168 7 | 9 2356 245 |
| 3457 9 147 | 134 2 1346 | 34567 8 457 |
| 6 3478 2478 | 5 89 3489 | 347 23 1 |
'---------------------'---------------------'-------------------' |
Code: | .---------------------.---------------------.----------------------.
| 12359 7 239 | 1269 2589 1689 | 568 23568 4 |
| 6 12345 234 | 1247 24578 1478 | 578 9 23578 |
| 259 245 8 | 24679 24579 3 | 1 256 257 |
:---------------------+---------------------+----------------------:
| 2789 2468 24679 | 479 1 5 | 3 2468 2789 |
| 1789 1468 4679 | 3 479 2 | 456789 14568 15789 |
| 12379 1234 5 | 8 6 479 | 479 124 1279 |
:---------------------+---------------------+----------------------:
| 378 368 1 | 5 34789 46789 | 2 348 389 |
| 23578 9 237 | 1247 23478 1478 | 458 13458 6 |
| 4 23568 236 | 1269 2389 1689 | 589 7 13589 |
'---------------------'---------------------'----------------------' |
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| ivoc
| Joined: 05 Mar 2010 | Posts: 18 | : | | Items |
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Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 7:29 am Post subject: |
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Sorry, hobiwan,
I can't insert in empty grid both - the values and candidates (but i'll try do it), I can insert only the values.
Write the start grid and I'll write all the tasks
Regards IvoC |
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| ivoc
| Joined: 05 Mar 2010 | Posts: 18 | : | | Items |
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Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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I see, all 3 SUDOKUs you posted are "type start" (very good looking), the candidates meet the values.
Using my solver:
Grid #1: 2 Guess (the first two tasks) and 1 Wedding Ring used
Grid #2: 1Guess (the first task) and 17 Wedding Ring used
Grid #3: 1 Guess (the first task) and 22 Wedding Ring used
Using IntoSudoku solver:
Grid #1: 4 Guess, 7 Nice Loop and 1 Double Implication Chain
Grid #2: 7 Guess and 6 Nice Loop
Grid #2: 6 Guess and 5 Nice Loop
Yesterday I found an excellent solver, Sudoku Explainer, and now I'm not shure anymore, if my solver is a good one. Trying diferent grids, it (Sudoku Explainer) solves them really perfect without guess. In short - a brilliant application as a solver and as a "teacher". The only displeasure is - it is not possible scroll tasks back and the tasks are not numbered.
But in some rare cases it ask the permission to continue Solve Step. Ones I have clicked on Yes and waited a looong time. It was NOT possible to interrupt the job and after different attempts the computer crashed (and lost the disks, fortunately not for good). His explanation is, "it may take a very long computing time". However, this happens with all three Grids you posted.
If you wish, I'll post the tasks for all the three Grids. I mean, it won't be necessary!
Regards IvoC |
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| m_b_metcalf
| Joined: 13 Mar 2006 | Posts: 210 | : | Location: Berlin | Items |
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Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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ivoc wrote: | I
But in some rare cases it ask the permission to continue Solve Step. Ones I have clicked on Yes and waited a looong time. It was NOT possible to interrupt the job and after different attempts the computer crashed (and lost the disks, fortunately not for good). His explanation is, "it may take a very long computing time". However, this happens with all three Grids you |
SE is simply running out of memory. Try downloading the code and add -Xmx500m to your command line (and then be prepared to wait an hour or two).
Regards,
Mike Metcalf |
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| hobiwan
| Joined: 11 Feb 2008 | Posts: 83 | : | | Items |
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Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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I think we have a slight misunderstanding here: SE is the abbreviation for SudokuExplainer, it is the software, that is used to provide the ratings for the puzzles in the Patterns Game.
What I dont understand is: You said a while ago, that your solver solves all but 11 of all the puzzles with an SE rating > 9.5 from the Patterns Game. The puzles above have a SE rating > 10.6 and your solver has to guess. There are about 60 such puzzles among the set with SE > 9.5. That said, I find it hard to believe your number. |
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| ivoc
| Joined: 05 Mar 2010 | Posts: 18 | : | | Items |
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Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:33 am Post subject: |
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hobiwan wrote: | I think we have a slight misunderstanding here: SE is the abbreviation for SudokuExplainer, it is the software, that is used to provide the ratings for the puzzles in the Patterns Game.
What I dont understand is: You said a while ago, that your solver solves all but 11 of all the puzzles with an SE rating > 9.5 from the Patterns Game. The puzles above have a SE rating > 10.6 and your solver has to guess. There are about 60 such puzzles among the set with SE > 9.5. That said, I find it hard to believe your number. |
Dear hobiwan,
I have NEVER sad "all but 11 of all the puzzles with an SE rating > 9.5 from the Patterns Game".
I have written (08. Mar 2010):
*****
From all 633 grids you have sugested my solver doesn't solve 11 without guess. Pretty good, isn't it?
*****
and (15. Mar 2010)
*****
But thanks to you, I found in my solver a bug, in Unique Rectangle method, and I fixed it. Now from all 633 grids you suggested, running my solver only 7 need guess - thanks to method Wedding Ring, I hope so!
Voila:
070060900006002030020000006003100040000200008050034000900003020000700105008000000
010020300004003050060000001005700060000800002070012000400005090000400805007000000
000012300000400000105006700706000020800050003090000806008300609000008000004560000
000012300000400000506007100201000080800030007090000501008100706000008000004750000
000012300000400000401005600705000010600020007030000806003600109000001000006590000
000000000001234500020605030014000260050000010073000890040709020002413700000000000
010000020003000400000105000004060700020000080007040300000203000006000900070000010
*****
Are you sure we are talking about the same grids? I have copied them (all 633) from [Pattern Game Results] as suggested!
Some thing are hard (to believe), indeed. But believe me, I HAVE NO NEED to persuade you.
Regards IvoC
P. S.
1. Sudoku Explainer is NOT only a Rating Tool
2. Please, do not falsificate my words
3. It's time to quit our conversation |
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| m_b_metcalf
| Joined: 13 Mar 2006 | Posts: 210 | : | Location: Berlin | Items |
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Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 10:07 am Post subject: |
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ivoc wrote: | Code: |
070060900006002030020000006003100040000200008050034000900003020000700105008000000
010020300004003050060000001005700060000800002070012000400005090000400805007000000
000012300000400000105006700706000020800050003090000806008300609000008000004560000
000012300000400000506007100201000080800030007090000501008100706000008000004750000
000012300000400000401005600705000010600020007030000806003600109000001000006590000
000000000001234500020605030014000260050000010073000890040709020002413700000000000
010000020003000400000105000004060700020000080007040300000203000006000900070000010
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Without wanting to get caught in the cross-fire: here are the ratings:
Code: |
9.3/1.2/1.2
9.5/1.2/1.2
9.3/1.2/1.2
9.4/1.2/1.2
9.5/1.2/1.2
9.1/1.2/1.2
9.1/1.2/1.2 |
Regards,
Mike Metcalf |
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| hobiwan
| Joined: 11 Feb 2008 | Posts: 83 | : | | Items |
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Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 10:22 am Post subject: |
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My suggestion was:
hobiwan wrote: | Try puzzles with a SE rating > 9.5 |
Your answer was:
ivoc wrote: | From all 633 grids you have sugested my solver doesn't solve 11 without guess. |
Well if I suggest to use puzzles with SE > 9.5 from the patters game and you say that your solver solves all but 11 of the puzzles I suggested without guessing than that amounts to "My solver solves all but 11 of all puzzles with SE > 9.5 from the patterns game", at least in my book.
We appear to have talked about different sets of puzzles all the time, and that is what I meant with "misunderstanding". I cannot see where I "falsified" your words.
To make that clear: The results of the Patterns Game are in posts that start with ":: game xxxx final". Every posted puzzle is written on a line, followed by a '#', a number and the rating. With puzzles with SE > 9.5 I mean all puzzles which rating starts with "9.5" or greater.
ivoc wrote: | 1. Sudoku Explainer is NOT only a Rating Tool |
I never said it is ONLY a rating tool. I said it is used as a rating tool in the Patterns Game. |
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| ivoc
| Joined: 05 Mar 2010 | Posts: 18 | : | | Items |
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Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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Exceptionally (and this is my final post): You have suggested this grids (and you can NOT deny it)
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010020300002003040050000006004700050000100008070068000300004060000500104009000000
010020300002003040050000006004700050000100008070095000300004090000900104006000000
010020300004005060070000008006300070000100002030092000900006040000800106008000000
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From grids above my solver only for 7 activates "method" guess. I don't need no your comment more. Good by! |
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| PIsaacson
| Joined: 17 Jan 2006 | Posts: 47 | : | Location: Campbell, CA | Items |
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Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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Ivoc,
You may be interested in the following threads on the Sudoku Players' Forum:
NRCZT chains/algorithms http://www.sudoku.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=14738
NRCZT braids http://www.sudoku.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=6390
Ribbons http://www.sudoku.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=14798
Your "wedding ring" sounds very much like an nrczt whip as defined by Denis Bethier. He has numerous postings on this forum and the Players' forum regarding his nrczt theories. The second suggested url contains various links to some of his other postings.
The concept of using assert candidate false as the initial z-target candidate condition has been investigated elsewhere, and I believe the consensus was that assert false is not needed since some other prior assert true will always contain that (the assert candidate false) as the next step of an AIC logic stream.
I ran your puzzles through SE and only puzzles 54 and 148 ranked SE 9.5 while most (600 out of 632) scored below 9.0. For comparison: My implementation of nrczt whips solved all but the two 9.5 puzzles in 1.459 seconds while my implementation of nrczt braids solved them all in 2.391 seconds.
Cheers,
Paul |
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