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| ChPicard
| Joined: 12 Mar 2008 | Posts: 82 | : | Location: Montreal, Canada | Items |
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| gsf
| Joined: 18 Aug 2005 | Posts: 411 | : | Location: NJ USA | Items |
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Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:27 am Post subject: Re: Entering sudokus in Identification service |
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ChPicard wrote: |
This night, my computer found 250 17 given sudokus and I want to verify if they are in the Gordon Royle's list but it is fastidious.
Is it possible to edit an HTML file with links to ask the database easily?
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I have a unix shell script that first checks a local copy of the db using my solver,
and then goes to the web site using wget(1)
you can post the candidates here or by pm and I can check |
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| coloin
| Joined: 05 May 2005 | Posts: 97 | : | | Items |
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Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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The way I did it [owing to being incapable of writing any program][maybe I shouldnt post here !]
Canicolize the complete list of Gfroyles 17s
from http://people.csse.uwa.edu.au/gordon/sudoku17
Canicolize your "new" 17s courtesy of gsf.
The function is C:\ sudoku -qFN -f'%#0c' file.txt > file.can
Now using a comercial text editor [boxer text editor] [boxersoftware.com]
Copy Gordons list twice
Copy your new list once
You can easily find the "unique files" with the press of a button
C |
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| ChPicard
| Joined: 12 Mar 2008 | Posts: 82 | : | Location: Montreal, Canada | Items |
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Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 8:37 pm Post subject: Re: Entering sudokus in Identification service |
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gsf wrote: |
I have a unix shell script that first checks a local copy of the db using my solver,
and then goes to the web site using wget(1)
you can post the candidates here or by pm and I can check |
Hi Glenn
Thank you again for help. Next time, I will do it alone.
Here they are :
1.....2.3....45...6.........4..6.....5.....7....3..6..3..1......7....8.........5.
1.....2.3....45...6.........4..6.....5.....7....3..6..3..1......7....9.........5.
1.....2.3....45...6.........4..6.....5.....7....3..6..3..2............5..7....8..
1.....2.3....45...6.........4..6.....5.....7....3..6..3..2............5..7....9..
1.....2.3....45...6.........4..6.....5.....7....3..6..3..2............5..7...8...
1.....2.3....45...6.........4..6.....5.....7....3..6..3..2............5..7...9...
1.....2.3....45...6.........4..6.....5.....7....3..6..3..2.........8..5..7.......
1.....2.3....45...6.........4..6.....5.....7....3..6..3..2.........9..5..7.......
1.....2.3....45...6.........4..6.....5.....7....3..6..3..2.......8....5..7.......
1.....2.3....45...6.........4..6.....5.....7....3..6..3..2.......9....5..7.......
1.....2.3....45...6.........4..6.....5.....7....3..6..3..2......7...........8..5.
1.....2.3....45...6.........4..6.....5.....7....3..6..3..2......7...........9..5.
1.....2.3....45...6.........4..6.....5.....7....3..6..3..2......7.........8....5.
1.....2.3....45...6.........4..6.....5.....7....3..6..3..2......7.........9....5.
1.....2.3....45...6.........4..6.....5.....7....3..6..3..2......7....8.........5.
1.....2.3....45...6.........4..6.....5.....7....3..6..3..2......7....9.........5.
1.....2.3....45...6.........4..6.....5.....7....3..6..3..2......7...8..........5.
1.....2.3....45...6.........4..6.....5.....7....3..6..3..2......7...9..........5.
1.....2.3....45...6.........4..6.....5.....7....3..6..3..2...8........5..7.......
1.....2.3....45...6.........4..6.....5.....7....3..6..3..2...8..7..............5.
1.....2.3....45...6.........4..6.....5.....7....3..6..3..2...9........5..7.......
1.....2.3....45...6.........4..6.....5.....7....3..6..3..2...9..7..............5.
1.....2.3....45...6.........4..6.....5.....7....3..6..3.82............5..7.......
1.....2.3....45...6.........4..6.....5.....7....3..6..3.82......7..............5.
1.....2.3....45...6.........4..6.....5.....7....3..6..3.92............5..7.......
1.....2.3....45...6.........4..6.....5.....7....3..6..3.92......7..............5.
1.....2.3....45...6.........4..6.....5.....7....3..68.3..2............5..7.......
1.....2.3....45...6.........4..6.....5.....7....3..68.3..2......7..............5.
1.....2.3....45...6.........4..6.....5.....7....3..69.3..2............5..7.......
1.....2.3....45...6.........4..6.....5.....7....3..69.3..2......7..............5.
1.....2.3....45...6.........4..6.....5.....7.8..3..6..3..2............5..7.......
1.....2.3....45...6.........4..6.....5.....7.8..3..6..3..2......7..............5.
1.....2.3....45...6.........4..6.....5.....7.9..3..6..3..2............5..7.......
1.....2.3....45...6.........4..6.....5.....7.9..3..6..3..2......7..............5.
1.....2.3....45...6.........4..6.....5.8...7....3..6..3..2............5..7.......
1.....2.3....45...6.........4..6.....5.8...7....3..6..3..2......7..............5.
1.....2.3....45...6.........4..6.....5.9...7....3..6..3..2............5..7.......
1.....2.3....45...6.........4..6.....5.9...7....3..6..3..2......7..............5.
1.....2.3....45...6.........4..6....85.....7....3..6..3..2............5..7.......
1.....2.3....45...6.........4..6....85.....7....3..6..3..2......7..............5.
1.....2.3....45...6.........4..6....95.....7....3..6..3..2............5..7.......
1.....2.3....45...6.........4..6....95.....7....3..6..3..2......7..............5.
1.....2.3....45...6.........4..6...8.5.....7....3..6..3..2............5..7.......
1.....2.3....45...6.........4..6...8.5.....7....3..6..3..2......7..............5.
1.....2.3....45...6.........4..6...9.5.....7....3..6..3..2............5..7.......
1.....2.3....45...6.........4..6...9.5.....7....3..6..3..2......7..............5.
1.....2.3....45...6.........4..68....5.....7....3..6..3..2............5..7.......
1.....2.3....45...6.........4..68....5.....7....3..6..3..2......7..............5.
1.....2.3....45...6.........4..69....5.....7....3..6..3..2............5..7.......
1.....2.3....45...6.........4..69....5.....7....3..6..3..2......7..............5.
1.....2.3....45...6..8......4..6.....5.....7....3..6..3..2............5..7.......
1.....2.3....45...6..8......4..6.....5.....7....3..6..3..2......7..............5.
1.....2.3....45...6..9......4..6.....5.....7....3..6..3..2............5..7.......
1.....2.3....45...6..9......4..6.....5.....7....3..6..3..2......7..............5.
1.....2.3....45...68........4..6.....5.....7....3..6..3..2............5..7.......
1.....2.3....45...68........4..6.....5.....7....3..6..3..2......7..............5.
1.....2.3....45...69........4..6.....5.....7....3..6..3..2............5..7.......
1.....2.3....45...69........4..6.....5.....7....3..6..3..2......7..............5.
1.....2.3....45..86.........4..6.....5.....7....3..6..3..1......7..............5.
1.....2.3....45..86.........4..6.....5.....7....3..6..3..2............5..7.......
1.....2.3....45..86.........4..6.....5.....7....3..6..3..2......7..............5.
1.....2.3....45..96.........4..6.....5.....7....3..6..3..1......7..............5.
1.....2.3....45..96.........4..6.....5.....7....3..6..3..2............5..7.......
1.....2.3....45..96.........4..6.....5.....7....3..6..3..2......7..............5.
1.....2.3....458..6.........4..6.....5.....7....3..6..3..2............5..7.......
1.....2.3....458..6.........4..6.....5.....7....3..6..3..2......7..............5.
1.....2.3....459..6.........4..6.....5.....7....3..6..3..2............5..7.......
1.....2.3....459..6.........4..6.....5.....7....3..6..3..2......7..............5.
1...8.2.3....45...6.........4..6.....5.....7....3..6..3..2............5..7.......
1...8.2.3....45...6.........4..6.....5.....7....3..6..3..2......7..............5.
1...9.2.3....45...6.........4..6.....5.....7....3..6..3..2............5..7.......
1...9.2.3....45...6.........4..6.....5.....7....3..6..3..2......7..............5.
18....2.3....45...6.........4..6.....5.....7....3..6..3..2............5..7.......
18....2.3....45...6.........4..6.....5.....7....3..6..3..2......7..............5.
19....2.3....45...6.........4..6.....5.....7....3..6..3..2............5..7.......
19....2.3....45...6.........4..6.....5.....7....3..6..3..2......7..............5.
Jean-Pierre |
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| coloin
| Joined: 05 May 2005 | Posts: 97 | : | | Items |
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Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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Not good news Im afraid
Here are your canonicalized puzzles using gsfs prog.
'000400080050009000700000000014800000000600000000000207060000040000002600900007000'
'000400080050009000700000000014800000000600000000000207060000040000002600900007000'
'003000000000080100090200000000070000810040000000000035070000800002300000000500007'
'003000000000080100090200000000070000810040000000000035070000800002300000000500007'
'003000000000080100000200060000070000810040000000000035070000800002300000000500007'
'003000000000080100000200060000070000810040000000000035070000800002300000000500007'
'003000009000080100000200000000070000810040000000000035070000800002300000000500007'
'003000009000080100000200000000070000810040000000000035070000800002300000000500007'
'003006000000080100000200000000070000810040000000000035070000800002300000000500007'
'003006000000080100000200000000070000810040000000000035070000800002300000000500007'
'003000009000080100000200000000070000810040000000000035070000800002300000000500007'
'003000009000080100000200000000070000810040000000000035070000800002300000000500007'
'003006000000080100000200000000070000810040000000000035070000800002300000000500007'
'003006000000080100000200000000070000810040000000000035070000800002300000000500007'
'003000000000080100090200000000070000810040000000000035070000800002300000000500007'
'003000000000080100090200000000070000810040000000000035070000800002300000000500007'
'003000000000080100000200060000070000810040000000000035070000800002300000000500007'
'003000000000080100000200060000070000810040000000000035070000800002300000000500007'
'003000000006080100000200000000070000810040000000000035070000800002300000000500007'
'003000000006080100000200000000070000810040000000000035070000800002300000000500007'
'003000000006080100000200000000070000810040000000000035070000800002300000000500007'
'003000000006080100000200000000070000810040000000000035070000800002300000000500007'
'003000000000089100000200000000070000810040000000000035070000800002300000000500007'
'003000000000089100000200000000070000810040000000000035070000800002300000000500007'
'003000000000089100000200000000070000810040000000000035070000800002300000000500007'
'003000000000089100000200000000070000810040000000000035070000800002300000000500007'
'003000000000080100000200000000070000810040000000000035079000800002300000000500007'
'003000000000080100000200000000070000810040000000000035079000800002300000000500007'
'003000000000080100000200000000070000810040000000000035079000800002300000000500007'
'003000000000080100000200000000070000810040000000000035079000800002300000000500007'
'003000000000080100000200000000070000810040000000000035070060800002300000000500007'
'003000000000080100000200000000070000810040000000000035070060800002300000000500007'
'003000000000080100000200000000070000810040000000000035070060800002300000000500007'
'003000000000080100000200000000070000810040000000000035070060800002300000000500007'
'003000000000080100000200000000070000810040000000000035070000800002300600000500007'
'003000000000080100000200000000070000810040000000000035070000800002300600000500007'
'003000000000080100000200000000070000810040000000000035070000800002300600000500007'
'003000000000080100000200000000070000810040000000000035070000800002300600000500007'
'003000000000080100000200000000070000810040000000000035070000800002390000000500007'
'003000000000080100000200000000070000810040000000000035070000800002390000000500007'
'003000000000080100000200000000070000810040000000000035070000800002390000000500007'
'003000000000080100000200000000070000810040000000000035070000800002390000000500007'
'003000000000080100000200000000070000810040000000000035070000800002300000600500007'
'003000000000080100000200000000070000810040000000000035070000800002300000600500007'
'003000000000080100000200000000070000810040000000000035070000800002300000600500007'
'003000000000080100000200000000070000810040000000000035070000800002300000600500007'
'003000000000080100000200000000070000810040000000000035070000800002300000000500097'
'003000000000080100000200000000070000810040000000000035070000800002300000000500097'
'003000000000080100000200000000070000810040000000000035070000800002300000000500097'
'003000000000080100000200000000070000810040000000000035070000800002300000000500097'
'003000000000080100000200000000070900810040000000000035070000800002300000000500007'
'003000000000080100000200000000070900810040000000000035070000800002300000000500007'
'003000000000080100000200000000070900810040000000000035070000800002300000000500007'
'003000000000080100000200000000070900810040000000000035070000800002300000000500007'
'003000000000080100000200000000670000810040000000000035070000800002300000000500007'
'003000000000080100000200000000670000810040000000000035070000800002300000000500007'
'003000000000080100000200000000670000810040000000000035070000800002300000000500007'
'003000000000080100000200000000670000810040000000000035070000800002300000000500007'
'000400080000009000700000000014800000000600000005000207060000040000002600900007000'
'003000000000080100000200000000070000810040000900000035070000800002300000000500007'
'003000000000080100000200000000070000810040000900000035070000800002300000000500007'
'000400080000009000700000000014800000000600000005000207060000040000002600900007000'
'003000000000080100000200000000070000810040000900000035070000800002300000000500007'
'003000000000080100000200000000070000810040000900000035070000800002300000000500007'
'003000000000080100000200000000070000810040000060000035070000800002300000000500007'
'003000000000080100000200000000070000810040000060000035070000800002300000000500007'
'003000000000080100000200000000070000810040000060000035070000800002300000000500007'
'003000000000080100000200000000070000810040000060000035070000800002300000000500007'
'003000000000080100000200000000070000810040006000000035070000800002300000000500007'
'003000000000080100000200000000070000810040006000000035070000800002300000000500007'
'003000000000080100000200000000070000810040006000000035070000800002300000000500007'
'003000000000080100000200000000070000810040006000000035070000800002300000000500007'
'003000000000080100000200000000070000810940000000000035070000800002300000000500007'
'003000000000080100000200000000070000810940000000000035070000800002300000000500007'
'003000000000080100000200000000070000810940000000000035070000800002300000000500007'
'003000000000080100000200000000070000810940000000000035070000800002300000000500007'
Many duplicates and im afraid none are new
Keep trying !
Regards
C |
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| gsf
| Joined: 18 Aug 2005 | Posts: 411 | : | Location: NJ USA | Items |
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Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:25 pm Post subject: Re: Entering sudokus in Identification service |
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the list of 76 17s has only 20 essentially different puzzles
all of them are in gordon's list |
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| Adak
| Joined: 27 Feb 2008 | Posts: 87 | : | | Items |
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Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 8:32 am Post subject: |
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I understand that generating all the canonical essential grids for the 17's has been done, correct? I don't remember if it was Jarvis or Ed Russell, but one paper mentioned that these grids could be generated, after all the reductions had been made, in just a few hours, with just one PC.
What remains to be done is to create the discrete grids from the can. essential grids, and test them for solvability and the number of solutions?
The grids that are created from the same essential grid, don't all have the same qualities of being solvable and the same number of solutions, then?
I thought they might share those attributes.
The grid generator is getting a quick re-write. Seems my "human" way of moving the givens around the board, made the computer hiss, moan, and throw a fit.
Generally, I like to program the computer to mimic a job the same way I would do it by hand (since I'm lazy, that usually works out to be pretty efficient). In this case, the machine needs to do this, in it's own natural non-human, way. |
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| coloin
| Joined: 05 May 2005 | Posts: 97 | : | | Items |
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Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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Indeed we did try to look at what was special about the grids which had 17-puzzles.
[solution grids = grids = solution matrix = 81 clue solution]
[puzzle=puzzle]
Nothing was specific - the incidence of all the bands was described as very similar, although the MCN tended to be lower, on average, in the grids with 17-puzzles.
However, since then we do know that the bands with a repeating minirow, minlex bands 1-30 are twice as common.
Every grid solution has 6 of these bands.
However the problem, which I dont think you have appreciated, is given a grid which is known to have a 17-puzzle, finding this 17-puzzle is actually very difficult. It is even more difficult in the 17-puzzles found more recently as they dont tend to have many 18s [if any] and 19s etc with the same grid solution. I tried it recently thinking it would be a "good game to play" - search for a 17 game. I couldnt do it easily anyway.
C |
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| Adak
| Joined: 27 Feb 2008 | Posts: 87 | : | | Items |
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Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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@coloin, You're saying that taking an "essential" canonical grid, that it's difficult to "flesh out" the various grid combinations that it includes?
I'm surprised someone hasn't coded up a little utility to handle that - that makes the canonical grid data more enjoyable for everyone. |
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| gsf
| Joined: 18 Aug 2005 | Posts: 411 | : | Location: NJ USA | Items |
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Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:56 am Post subject: |
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Adak wrote: | @coloin, You're saying that taking an "essential" canonical grid, that it's difficult to "flesh out" the various grid combinations that it includes?
I'm surprised someone hasn't coded up a little utility to handle that - that makes the canonical grid data more enjoyable for everyone. |
there may be a terminology disconnect here
given a grid (a valid 81 clue sudoku puzzle)
it is not a trivial task to determine how many 17 clue puzzles it contains
one utility that does this search is checker, already mentioned |
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| coloin
| Joined: 05 May 2005 | Posts: 97 | : | | Items |
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Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:18 am Post subject: |
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Adak wrote: | You're saying that taking an "essential" canonical grid, that it's difficult to "flesh out" the various grid combinations that it includes?
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Well if you take any "grid solution" = grid = matrix = 81 clue sudoku puzzle.
There is a simple program which removes clues till minimality, so you are right, its not difficult.
The trouble is there are 10^14 - 10^15 different minimal puzzles per grid solution.
generated by dukuso
Code: | here is some statistics, starting from a full grid and generating 1e6
random locally minimal sudokus from it.
1) one grid from each G-class at random
2) Gordon's grid with 29 17s,
3) our canonical grid,(1,1,1-1,1,1)
4) random sudokus - generated upwards.
clues , 1) 2) 3) 4)
----------------------------------
17, 0 0 0 0
18, 0 0 0 0
19, 0 4 0 5
20, 59 182 0 254
21, 2428 6051 85 8268
22, 33966 61826 1775 80869
23,170727 227480 21648 273518
24,342620 352289 116766 364111
25,298349 248568 286836 209158
26,122691 86061 329853 56006
27, 25237 15908 185028 7284
28, 2733 1547 50469 505
29, 205 74 7040 22
30, 7 8 486 0
31, 0 0 12 0
32, 0 0 2 0
-------------------------------------
aver.24.38 24.10 25.72 23.88 |
As you can see even in the "best grid" - the SF grid with 29 17-puzzles, the puzzles are hard to find.
C |
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